Male Announcer: You’re listening to From Pain to Possibility with Susi Hately. You will hear Susi’s best ideas on how to reduce or even eradicate your pain and learn how to listen to your body when it whispers so you don’t have to hear it scream. And now here’s your host, Susi Hately.
Susi: Welcome and welcome back. I’m so glad you’re here because today I have got Nona and Karin back with me. And what makes them so perfect for this next episode of my safety in selling miniseries is that I have interviewed them before.
And they started the certification final module back in January of 2024 and we are now recording this in December almost, it’s actually November, it’ll drop in December of 2024, and they’re moving through it. We’re almost complete with this technical training and their growth has been really cool to see, which is why I wanted to bring them on here for the safety in selling bit, because I wanted to take their perspective on where they are now versus where they were when they started.
And before we started recording what we were talking about is ultimately this multi-level or multi-layer process around safety and how you do need to grow your technical skill to a place and to let it grow, like let the process grow on you and then you find it starting to become easier and feeling more internally safer to then share with other people.
So I’m really looking forward to you hearing Nona and Karin’s take on their experience and how this may play out into how you’re thinking about your own business, or those of you who are considering the certification program how this really ramps up in a very step-by-step, bit-by-bit kind of way that you have a lot of control with and you can build that skill and build that confidence and clarity over a period of time.
So, Nona and Karin, welcome. I’m so, so glad that you’re here. Why don’t we just start with the questions we were talking about before we got in? Like how has safety shifted or changed? When I even say that word, what starts to come up for you?
Nona: I mean safety for me feels like this grounded presence. And one of the things I was thinking about while you were talking and what we talked about earlier was the concept that you teach us, which is this pain-free range of motion, and how before the training I would say my marketing was outside of my pain-free range of motion. Like what I was doing with my marketing felt just super uncomfortable and I didn’t like it.
And so I had kind of stopped with my marketing and trying to sell to people because I felt so uncomfortable. And over the process of being in the program, like okay, well what if I just start in a smaller range? What if I just reach out to some individuals instead of being like, I have to blast everything all over social media and send a blast email. Like working in a range of motion that didn’t feel like I was clenching my belly and holding my shoulders up, you know?
Susi: Yeah, the embodied act of engagement.
Nona: Yes, absolutely.
Susi: So good. So good. I love that because there’s an alignment to how you’re communicating with people and how you work. Really cool. Okay, your turn,
Karin. What’s that word safety mean to you?
Karin: So I’m always looking at everything through this trauma lens, which is my primary training, and I want to feel safe in my environment. That’s with clients that I take or don’t take, and that’s why I always have a conversation with them first. And I want to feel that what I’m doing is keeping people safe.
And that was a really big deal for me. And as you led us into this here, I like the idea of this multi-layer because as we were sharing, I could never be where I am without all the steps that it took. And not just the technical steps, but those were huge. Everything layered on top of everything else.
And although we didn’t plan this in our cohort, we basically returned to these Wednesdays as technical pieces, which actually is the perfect way to round this out because we see our growth and we see this evolution of safety.
We’ve been through lots of different phases. We didn’t think that this was what it would be about, but I think it feels so good in our systems. We’re learning so much about nervous system safety and calming our nervous system, so if we’re walking in with a client or if we’re Zooming with a client or having a phone conversation, I think it’s fair to say that most of us, if not all of us, have built the capacity to know when something is off.
And if we want to define that as not feeling safe or define it as safe when it feels right, that’s okay. But we keep building that capacity. It doesn’t happen overnight. There’s no way you can talk yourself into using purely your brain, that cognitive piece, into recognizing, oh, my system feels safe. That had to build over all of these months. There’s no doubt in my mind.
Susi: So with that said, imagine that someone who’s listening to this is – And I’m going to ask this in two ways. The first one is people who are listening, they’re professionally trained, maybe they’re already CIAYTs and they are struggling around, like they may even word it after listening to this miniseries like, yeah, I just don’t feel safe in the selling process. I feel like an imposter. I feel any of those feelings. And then for someone who might be considering the program and wanting to build a business and feeling a bit nervous, what do you have to say to them?
Nona: Well, I was going to say, for the person who’s struggling, who’s already a CIAYT, who doesn’t feel comfortable in selling, again, I’m going to go back to the range of motion, like starting small. Some of it is, there are kind of two tracks, right? We have skill and we have belief, right? And skill is built by repetition, like what Karin was talking about. We show up and we do the practice.
And so some of it is just practicing getting paid, practicing asking for money at a level that feels okay in your system, right? So for that person, I’m like, oh honey, take a deep breath and take your fear by the hand and just go ahead and try, right? Go ahead and step into that. And that creates capacity too, like when we practice when we’re afraid, right?
And I think Karin was talking about earlier, she was talking about – No, you were, Susi, sorry. You were talking about the person who was afraid that everybody was going to think they were greedy. And it’s like, sometimes we just have to take the step and try, right? Like we need to resource ourselves and just take the step.
And then for the person who’s thinking about taking the training, you know what? I’m going to send that over to Karin because I think Karin had some really great things that she was saying about the layers and learning to trust yourself, because I think that’s really key. And I loved the way you talked about that, Karin.
Karin: No pressure.
Nona: No pressure.
Karin: I’m sort of a proponent for taking the whole Megillah, as they say, because, I don’t know how well this will translate, it’s such an evolution in the person. It was such an evolution in me, so many ups and downs. And I verbalized it through the imposter syndrome, which it’s not that it’s gone. It’s just that the way that Susie poses these questions it’s like, well, what does that mean for you? Well, what could that mean? Well, what could happen?
And it allowed me to go to the worst case scenario. Well, Karin, go to the worst case scenario. You just said it, what if someone thinks you’re greedy? Go to the worst case scenario. Somebody doesn’t want to take it, like what’s going to happen? Nothing in my life, thank God, is going to considerably change if somebody says no. But that was how it worked for me. Like, oh wow, if I imagine the worst case scenario, that’s not so bad. Let me just keep trying. But that helped in my system.
Susi: I think what I’m hearing each of you say, and I found it actually quite fascinating listening to you, and then also with my upcoming interview with Lori, and Lori is the one who talked about being afraid of people thinking that she was greedy, is in these dialogues, safety isn’t being created. There is a feeling of safety that has definitely an embodied, felt sense. And it’s not necessarily the fuel for what’s happening. It kind of arises as you continue to take the steps.
And in the way that Nona put it, aligned with my statement of move in a range that doesn’t increase pain or move in a pain-free range of motion. Like move in a way, act in a way, engage with people in a way that feels good, that is comfortable, even if it might be uncomfortable or new. And it might be stepping outside of your circle of comfort. I know I’ve used discomfort and comfort in the same way there.
What I’m hearing you two say, and what I’m hearing Lori say is, there’s nothing to create first. It’s noticing what actually feels good now. And though it might be a step or a stretch, you’re not going to snap. What they say out in the world of neuroscience, it’s like there’s a challenge skills balance where you don’t want to make what you’re doing too big of a stretch or you’re going to have too much anxiety, but you want to have something, right?
And so as Karin, you’ve talked about, it’s just like a step by step. Like you put in the rounds, you put in the miles, you come to the weekly calls, you come to the training weeks, and then you do your sessions with your clients and you build that capacity from which you then can speak about it.
So I find that really, really interesting because sometimes what I hear in the safety, in the people talking about safety is we need to create safety first. But again, what actually is that? And then if you’re not feeling safe, is it fair to say or fair to ask, then what’s the capacity that feels like not full? Like where are you feeling the gap? Where are you feeling doubtful? Where are you feeling? And is that the skill you then get to build?
Because, Nona, you spoke about skill. Like there’s a growth of skill. And did you use the word belief? Skill and belief I think is what you said, right? So if there’s a feeling of like whatever that feeling and how that resonates in an embodied way, can we reflect on what skill is missing or is lower or needs to grow or needs to be added to?
If there’s doubt, is the doubt letting us know we just need to put some more reps in? Or is the doubt actually saying we actually need to learn something more?
Nona: Gosh, and I think that’s often a both and.
Susi: Yeah.
Nona: Like the doubt can be pointing us towards some – One of the things that often comes up for me when I’m promoting a new program is very similar to imposter syndrome, like, oh my God, what if I can’t do it? Oh my God, what if they don’t get what they want? There can be some of that. And I’ve also learned to frame that as like, I want to do my best. I want people to feel held and seen and heard. And my doubt is a reflection of my desire.
And so that’s been a really helpful way for me to hold that. Like okay, doubt, I see you. And at the same time, how do I talk about this in a skillful way so that people hear what I’m saying to them and that it resonates with them so they want to be there, right? So the language is clear and I’m not afraid to say, I charge this much, right? When I’m on a sales call like, this is how much it is and I can look people in the eye. That is a skill, right? But my doubt about that is pointing to a desire to really be of service.
Susi: I want to add something as well, because you said something really important there around saying or articulating what it is that you’re offering. And there is a skill, you said, in that. And that skill really keeps it simple about what’s the actual problem that you’re solving.
I find that yoga therapists particularly can get kind of caught up into a loop of how do I describe yoga therapy? And there’s a bazillion and five ways to describe yoga therapy. And the reality is that most people aren’t buying yoga therapy. They’re buying a solution to their problem, right?
And so can you really listen for what’s the problem that someone’s actually having? And then when you can hear the problem that they’re having, you can then offer up a solution to that problem. And that solution is the process, I.e. the program you’re talking about, the program. And this is the result that you get from that process.
So it’s just sort of looping everything together. So there’s an engagement of not trying to convince someone to try or to do yoga therapy, because how does that even link to the problem that they want to solve? But rather speaking to, all right, what’s actually going on with that person? And can I help describe it with them so that they really can go, yeah, that’s the actual problem and this is the solution I would love to have.
And then out of that conversation, you can hear for, okay, is the process that I have going to help them or not? And when there’s that clarity, then the offering of the price becomes just part of the process as opposed to, ooh, right? There’s been an obvious pathway towards the offering of that. Yeah?
Karin: Yeah, I definitely still experience that, oh my goodness. I have some clients that started with me that are still paying that price. I feel that once I graduate, that is a logical time to adjust some pricing. I feel that that’s fair. And if you would have told me this a few months ago that I would do that, I would say, no, no, no, no, no, just keep things the way they are.
But again, and I’m not being, I don’t think I’m being super clear about it, there is this building of safety in my system by knowing how my body moves that allows me to feel safe in the selling process. Unless you are a born salesperson, this is a no-brainer for you.
I think Nona had a little bit of that because she looked at all of us from the jump and was like, what do you mean you’re not charging? And we all, because we have value, I don’t know that the average person can get there without knowing what safety feels like in their system. I really don’t.
If they have other somatic practices that they’re engaged in, yeah, very possible that they might. But I know most of us didn’t. I know most of us are still having these conversations and we are, a lot of us are coming out on the other end of it. It’s really, really cool to watch, but it is part of the process.
And people that are considering doing the program, it can be very subtle, but all of those seeds are being planted from the beginning. They really are. But I do agree with you, Susi, that now maybe you’re seeing I don’t know that you can teach safety.
You can teach logistical safety, right? So as a trauma, I mean, I do it all the time. You know, I don’t face people towards the wall. They have to see the door. I can cover the windows if they need that. No lyrics in music, things like that. I can adjust for those kinds of things.
But the safety in selling, I think, is an internal process and that needs to be built and nurtured and practiced. That’s why we practice. It’s a yoga practice, a selling practice, a meditation practice.
Susi: And what’s interesting in each of those practices, you start small, right? You don’t necessarily start a meditation practice sitting cross-legged or in lotus for 30 minutes, right? You might start sitting in a chair for five breaths, right?
And when we do our yoga therapy programming, initially the offering that I provide people is four movements, four things on the program that someone takes away with them, right? Maybe five, maybe 10 minutes of work. And then we build from there, right? Step by step, bit by bit, the neuromuscular coordination grows. So it’s interesting, right, how we grow with better movement and better dynamics, that growth, those results start to shift what we notice to be possible.
So if someone is showing up in our rooms, whether it’s on Zoom or in person, they may have a certain amount of belief that they can get out of pain, but they also might have a certain amount of belief that they can’t, right? And so there might be some fear. Well, I mean, I hope this works or I think it will work or I know it’ll work. But there also could be doubt present like, ooh, I don’t know, but I’m kind of hopeful, right?
So there’s sometimes not 100% clarity. And yet when the results come, those results show what’s possible. You have a moment of reduced pain, guess what that means? You can have reduced pain. You have moments of no pain, guess what? That means you can have no pain. So it’s almost similar as you’re moving along the process of engaging with potential clients or clients and talking about the reengagement of one-to-one series or offering workshops.
The nervousness and the doubt can be there and there can be equal or more clarity of what it is that you offer the more times you offer it, right?
Like now, 30 years in, this happened a long, long time ago, but I’m really comfortable and confident in my capacity to help someone out of pain. Like, that’s just, it’s just what I do. It’s just what I do. I can repeat it over and over and over again.
And I think there’s a point for everybody, like what you are all saying, or both of you saying is that capacity has grown. That belief has grown over the period of time. When you finished the intensive, you were inspired. You were like, hey, this is kind of cool. In the practice breakout rooms you were like, ooh, yeah, people were reducing pain. I’m not sure if I got this all the way through, but it’s like I can see that it’s possible.
So there were the seeds planted, but then over the course of the time together, you’ve gotten more and more and more. So what I’m hearing you both say is that as you have that technical skill, that sales skill for you becomes simple. It’s not even sales. It’s just sharing what you do.
Karin: That’s a great way to put it, yeah. I think if I can take the word sales out of my brain – I have a reputation in my family, everybody jokes around, oh, if there’s a certain price, Karin will say, oh, let me pay more. Because I’m so bad at negotiating. So if somebody even says to me, no, no, you’re in here all the time, have that cup of coffee on me. My husband will always say, did you pay them anyway?
So take it from me, if I can sell this stuff, anybody can.
Susi :I love it.
Karin: Anybody can.
Susi: I love it. I love it because what you’re saying is we’re simply offering. And that was something earlier on when I opened up this module inside of the certification program, what was clear is that some people were demonstrating what we sometimes call the creepy, weirdo piece of almost like going after people and trying to get them as clients.
And if you are trying to get someone as a client, we all can feel what that feels like. We can feel when someone’s trying to get us. And it doesn’t really enable a very safe experience in that process of enrollment or registration. So then that person will likely avoid or lie because that’s an easier way to kind of get out of the situation.
And as I mentioned in previous episodes, if they do sign up, that’s what the relationship is. So if you’ve had to convince them to become a client, you’re likely going to have to convince them while a client. So if you sort of let that all go and practice just offering, like sharing with what you do and try not to change the conversation to like, how do I turn this into an enrollment conversation?
But I like to say, talk to someone like you’re sharing the sunset together. Like you’re describing the sunset that you’re both seeing in front of you. Like you’re just describing that, right? Or maybe something more real like there’s a few of you who are deciding which restaurant to go to and there’s a conversation back and forth about what restaurant that is.
That’s a sales conversation, right? We’re moving something forward in order to get something. I’m using the word get something, but in order to take the next step forward in what you’re going to do next together, right? So it’s not, it’s not dissimilar, not dissimilar.
Nona: You know, one of the things that I always think about is when people say, I need to find clients, right? I need to find them. There is a – And speaking of safety, when you think about the anxiety that provokes and how, this is kind of woo, but people’s energy kind of comes up and out of their body. They’re kind of threading themselves out into the future.
And without that grounding of being here and like, okay, I’m going to call clients in. I’m going to talk to the person who’s in front of me. Like there’s a grounded, safe energy to that. But when somebody is like up and out of their energetic body, like even in trauma we talk about being disembodied or dissociated, right? And so there’s that kind of quality to that energy that isn’t helpful, right? Because we want to start how we want to continue, which is what I also say to people, which is what you just said, right?
You want to have the sales conversation the way you want to continue in the relationship. But having that language that you’re using, “I have to find clients,” like that creates so much anxiety and really throws people out of the present moment.
Susi: Yeah, really cool. Really, really, really cool. This is really helpful because what I’m hoping people are hearing is you don’t have to create safety. It’s the building of skill. It’s the acting on the skill. It’s offering. It’s connected. It’s acknowledging the doubt or the uncertainty that exists inside of you.
And what’s that doubt and uncertainty asking of you? Like it’s a messenger of some sort. And is it something that there’s a nervousness, there’s a belief piece of it, or is it like there is a skill development piece that needs to happen? It’s not something to shove aside, but something to connect with, embrace, like we’re doing the process with ourselves the same way we might do the process with a client, which is really, really lovely. Which is lovely because it’s aligned in all the ways. Yeah, Karin?
Karin: I was wondering too, for somebody that might be already a CIAYT and now they want to really kind of hone in or take it to the next level, I would have to wonder and ask, what is their practice? What are they doing in terms of their embodied movement or an embodied practice on a daily basis?
So they won’t have the advantage, let’s say of going through all of what we went through as a cohort. So how they get from that certification that they have already to safety and selling is still going to take some work on their part. I think they need to really look and see what I want? What do I want this to look like? Because they won’t get the message from inside of themselves.
So I think there needs to be some accountability. And you’ve often used, and I love, you have to eat your own cooking. You have to, you know, old school, practice what you preach. All of the goofy cliches, walk the walk, all of it. And I do it every day now. And I know, Nona, we’ve talked about this, you know, do a handful of our granular movements every single day to keep those in my system. That’s my new practice because I have to be able to tell people what it could feel like.
It could feel totally different for them, but I want to be able to be transparent and say, now this is not available in my body to take my right arm over my head, but you explore it, give it a try. So that creates transparency, which is absolutely safety producing.
You see these companies now, including my, I’ll call it parent company for my trauma work, they have these certifications about transparency. This is a company that has passed certain levels of transparency, that makes me feel safe. So if my teacher, my yoga teacher, my facilitator is not doing this stuff, is not being transparent, I don’t feel as safe. So that would be my challenge for certified yoga therapists to, you know, ask themselves, what am I doing? And I can’t sell what I am not embodying.
Susi: Mm-hmm. So good. So, so, so, so good. That’s actually a really great place to tie this up. Nona, did you want to have anything else to add?
Nona: I loved that, Karin. I loved it because that’s so true, right? Like my coach teacher always says you have to live it to give it, right? Eat your own cooking. It’s the same thing. Like embodying that creates safety for the people who are coming into your practice, for sure.
Susi: Yeah. And people feel it. They may not be able to specifically name it. They just will feel, they’ll feel it. They’ll feel the resonance that you’re giving off. Oh my gosh, so good. Okay, so if people want to connect with you, if they want to kind of check you out, see where you’re up to, Nona, what’s the best way for people to find you? And we can put links all in the show notes. What are your coordinates?
Nona: Yeah, the main coordinate is Nona at – No, that’s my email. nonajordan.com. [email protected], you can use that too, but nonajordan.com is where I can be found.
Susi: All right, awesome. Great. And Karin?
Karin: I’m a little more complicated. So the website is beemindfulspace.com, and it’s bee like the bumblebee, mindfulspace.com or [email protected], either one.
Susi: Brilliant. Well, you guys know where to find them if you want to continue conversations with them. Nona and Karin, thank you so much. This has been really awesome.
Karin: Thanks for having me, Susi.
If what you have heard today with Nona, Karin, and I really resonates with you and you want to take this to the next step, you will love Safety in Selling. And you can read all about it over at functionalsynergy.com/safe. You have a great rest of your day. We’ll see you next time.
